Just a little conversation I had with a guy from my class. (starts with his saying).
"How do believers resolve the logical problem of God being all knowing and all powerful? If God knows FOR SURE that (let's say) the next car you buy will be blue, does that mean that God is powerless to change the future? Because if God could change the future, then it wouldn't be FOR SURE that you would buy a blue car, because God could intervene.
How can God both know the future with 100% certainty AND be able to change it with 100% power?
It seems to me that if you believe in a God that intervenes in the affairs of the universe, then God cannot have a plan for the universe. Because if He did, He would never need to intervene, because things would always go according to plan. If you believe there is a grand plan, then the God you believe in must not ever intervene, but rather He simply lets his plan unfold. If that is the case, what is the purpose of prayer? "
"Who told you that God knows 100% sure the past?
I believe that God gves us freedom. We are free to make our own choces weither it cocernes what car to buy, or what style of life to choose.
Of course, the God CAN intervene, but he won't do it for making your choice of the color of the car. He intervenes when someone really neads help. When the intervention is really in need.
The purpose of prayer is not to ask the God for something (as car, or whatever), it is rather a way to keep contact eith God. A way of not forgetting about his existence. It is the time when you give your attention to the God. It hepls you to get Him in your heart. To eatablish peace in your heart. The prayer is not to ask, is talk with God. Of course, people do ask for help when they pray. And this is another goal. However, when people prey, they usually ask for help, rather than for getting something as car. Praying is asking for help, force. peace. And it does help.
Actually, there are atheists who also claim that praying does help. However, they look at it as at a sort of meditation.
Monks pray more than normal people. They give more of their time to the God. So, of course, they have more conact with Him. Their life is devoted to the God. And, by the fact, the God's intervention is more frequent with those.
They enter more often in the "conversation" with Him. So, they are more attentive to Him. And they "hear" him.
(again, you can look at it as on meditaion. You can't reach a certain level of meditation unless you've attemptes to achieve the previous one). "
"Amazing you seem to understand God quite well, Are you sure it's not for getting favors since all those famous folk seem to thank him for their successes all the time and yet all those people who are really suffering seem not to get much help at all, and you did say he helps people when they are "really" in need. I am just wondering since you seem to understand him so well, and me a poor simple mortal does not have divine understanding to get into how god works, so please enlighten us all. "
"yeah... love your irony/sarcasm...
The fact that people thank for their success doesn't mean that they PRAY for success. Those are different things.
and yes, we do thank God for success, not because he actually intervenes, but because he helps in keeping the morale, etc. Helping someone doesn't necessary involves solving the problem. Helping may be very inderect. Suppose I pray before an exam. It reduces my stress. I start to feel more confident. In that case, the God doesn't intervene. But the fact that I prayed Him, helped me. The help is very inderect. It's not God who helps me but rather my faith in his existence. However, if he wouldn't exist I wouldn't pray Him. Hence, I can thank Him.
He can help us, but He can't decide for us.
I'm sure He does help everyone, in a way.
If some people are suffering, it does not involve that He is not helping them.
Helping doesn't mean stop people's sufferings. The fact that people do suffer is the "by-product" of the freedom that the God gives us.
By the way, people won't be happier if they wouldn't suffer at all. It's not the sufferings that make people to be unhappy. It's rather their view on life. Our sense happiness, I believe, depends on us.
P.S.> I'm not saying that people don't pray for help. This is very individual. I'm just saying that orginally this is not the goal of the prayers "
"Question: How far does this "view on life" reach untill one realises, holy crap I am in one terrible situation here, it seems that one group speaking to the God believes it necesary to purge my group from existence, perhaps if I change my outlook on this situation things will get better (crusades ring a bell).
Althougth I agree that the mere act of praying does make peope feel better. Although the thanking God being a moral thing...I dont know. I think it may be somewhat ego boosting thinking God has gone out of his way to help you win an oscar or score a goal, that and why cant anyone ever take pride in human accomplishment without saying thankyou to a supernatural being, it cant be just because its seen as "morale". "
"well, when talking about "the view on life", i'm not really including a religious meaning in that. You have your own view on life as well and it does play a crucial role in how you are exeriencing the world. I mean, there is no way for you to feel happy if you are experiencing a learned helplessness (hope you know what i'm talking about). At the same time, you can be suffering, but be happy, at the same time. At least, i believe you can. It depends on how optimistic/pessimistic you are.
Now, talking about crusades... I feel like atheists have a problem in making a distinction between the Church as an institution and faith. I can't talk for everyone, but for me there is a huge difference. I don't agree with everything the church is saying. For example, i strongly disagree with the claim that there is one "true religion", while all the others are ""wrong". I had a classmate at school who was a protestat, and he was trying to convert me into his religion saying that mine (orthodox), and all other rligions, are "devil's religions". To me such claims seem rediculous. I believe that there is one God and it doesn't matter how you approach him weither as a muslim, as a bouddist, or a christian.
And remember we are all human beings. We all do mistakes. Everyone does. + i think you will agree on the fact that crusades had, in a way, nothing to do with God. the name of God was used to achieve selfish interests. the slogan "for the glory of God" does not necessary means that the actions are really done for "his glory".
I'm not sure that thanking God is a moral thing. When someone does something for you and you feel thankfull, do you consider that your thanking is just a moral thing, a rule of politness? I don't think so. You don't think b/c you HAVE to, but b/c you WANT to thank.
I am aware of the fact that there are problems, and a lot of problems with religion. But a still have faith.
You could say that i'm believing in God just b/c i was taught this way. and i wouldn''t be able to say that you would be completely wrong. My mother is a faithful person (however, my father is an atheist). I know that when i was a kid, i needed the God to feel protected, to deal with my fear. Living in Russia where there's a lot of criminality, i was tald a lot of scary stories about murders, etc. This was a way (and it still is) for parents to prevent their kids from danger. By the fact, when i was left alone at home (my parents and sister being away) i was afraid even to pass in front of the door leading outside. In such cases God was important for me. He was important for me while the bombardment of the White House in Russia in 1993. I remember the shootings just in front of my house. We were turning off the light, waiting it to stop.
This was a stage when i blindly believed in God. My mother tald me that he exists and i trusted her.
However, you can't continue to blindly believe in God all your life. And, hence, comes the stage where you start asking yourself "is there a God?" There was a stage where i did almost loose my faith. But then, it came to me again. I discovered Him myself.
So... of course there is a "family component"... maybe...
but i believe that i came to it myself... in a way... "
"well said, (and yes i do know what learned helplessness is). Your view on faith is very refreshing. Although I will admit that ones own views can lead to how one chooses to view the world, I was just pointing to the power of the situation. And yes the crusades (poorly chosen example) was less about religion and more about power, specigfically the church using the crusades as a means to solidify control in parts of europe and use the war as a distraction. In any case, your points on faith are interesting, and if only more people took faith to be something private and self fulfilling (like yourself it seems) instead of something that needs to be validated by influencing those around you into believing the same as you do, then the world would probably be more pleasant"
